The military career of Middletown native Michael Flynn hit a high point when he was named as Donald Trump’s national security adviser in 2016. But Flynn resigned after being in the role for just a few weeks, and he’s better known now as a leader of Christian nationalist movement. The Christian right embraces Trump, and according to Politico, an influential think tank plans to infuse Christian nationalist ideas in the White House if Trump wins in November. What does this mean for democracy? Is the U.S. moving closer to a theocracy? And how did a high-ranking former military official become a conspiracy theorist and a central figure in this movement? I’m Ian Donnis and this week I’m going in-depth with a Providence-based reporter on the investigations team for The Associated Press, Michelle Smith.
Ian Donnis: Michelle, welcome to The Public’s Radio.
Michelle Smith: Thank you for having me.
Donnis: You started reporting on Michael Flynn after he was forced out as Donald Trump’s national security advisor in 2017. How did Flynn go from being a well credentialed figure at a high level in the military to become a leading figure of the Christian right?
Smith: Well, that’s, that’s a long story I guess. Flynn he grew up in Middletown and he is from a big Irish Catholic family. His mother Helen was very, very involved in politics on Aquidneck Island and Democratic politics. And Flynn’s family members and his friends told us about how Flynn learned at her knee to be involved in politics from a very young age. He was going to anti abortion rallies with Helen. And you can see echoes of that, I think, now in the work that he’s doing.
Donnis: When we talk about Christian nationalism, how would you define what that is?
Smith: So Christian nationalism it’s the idea that Christianity is, you know, the basis for our country, that this is a Christian nation and that true Americans are Christian that it’s an identity wrapped up, you know, it’s your nationality and your religion all kind of wrapped up together. And it’s a certain kind of Christianity. Evangelical Christianity is what this is associated with a lot, a conservative Christianity. And so we’re seeing that Flynn has many, many – he frequently speaks to large groups, he has this tour called the Re-awaken America Tour that is going strong and it’s really kind of example A of Christian nationalism in the U. S. because it’s bringing, it’s mixing together politics, far right politics with Christianity. When we went to one in upstate New York, Flynn invited people to be baptized after a day of political rhetoric. And at the end of the day, people were baptized there. So it’s just wrapping these things all up together. And kind of defining what it is to be an American and a Christian, like fusing them into one identity.
Donnis: Is there a fundamental conflict between Christian nationalism and small d democracy since Christian nationalism is elevating the role of religion in political life?
Smith: Well you know, the U. S. is Pluralistic democracy. We were founded on the idea of a separation of church and state. Roger Williams, here in Rhode Island came up with that, and so, to say that a certain religion is more American than others, or that Christians are more legitimate American than others, I think is – there’s a fundamental conflict there with what, you know, when you have separation of religion from the government, people who want to base our government, our civic institutions around their interpretation of the Bible that’s fundamentally in conflict with multi-religious, multi-ethnic, multi-racial society.
Donnis: Flynn has a fairly apocalyptic message about the future of the U. S. Let’s listen to a clip from your Frontline documentary of him responding when you asked about what he is fighting for.
That sounds kind of dire that we’re going to lose it. What is he talking about when he says that?
Smith: Well when you listen to his speeches he will say things like some of, you know, we’ve already lost, you know, some people are down in the chasm already, some Americans, we’ve lost them. He puts a lot of, he frames a lot of this in, he calls it a spiritual battle. That it’s a battle of good versus evil and the evil he is oftentimes referring to are fellow Americans who disagree with him about certain political questions. So in the America that he describes from the stage and in podcasts and interviews, there are, the left generally is an enemy in that spiritual battle, and he labels them communists, socialists, and really puts it in dire terms that they are putting this country at risk of falling as he puts it in the interview.
Donnis: Your reporting on Frontline described how Flynn is seen within the Christian nationalist movement as a martyr, a warrior and an evangelist. How much support nationally is there for the kind of message that he’s spreading?
Smith: Well, I think that polling has shown that there’s a large percentage of Americans who agree with him on at least some of the things that he talks about, about America being a Christian nation, about you know, that it was founded on Judeo-Christian values, is how he and his allies put it. And that, you know, we should get back to what the Bible says, their reading of the Bible of how America should be. So there is a large number of people who agree with that.
Donnis: What is Michael Flynn doing now? And what role, if any, is he playing in Donald Trump’s effort to retake the White House?
Smith: So Flynn is continuing on speaking all across the country. He’s doing podcasts. He’s about to release a movie that he made with some allies of his. And he has been continuing to make endorsements. In the film, we talk about how in 2022, he had endorsed 99 candidates and those endorsements continue. He is out there, you know, every few days, it seems, I see another candidate that he’s endorsing and that he’s building political power.
I recall that at one point his brother, Joe Flynn, who works closely with him, had said that they were at Mar a Lago and Donald Trump came over and started comparing the endorsements that Trump had made with the endorsements that Flynn had made to show whose endorsed candidates were more successful. Donald Trump is very aware of what Flynn is doing. You know, he’s often mentioned, Flynn is often mentioned as a possible person that Trump would bring into an administration if he was elected again.
Donnis: There’s talk about how if Trump wins in November, there will be certain Christian nationalist figures possibly in his administration. How would you describe what this election in November means for the Christian nationalist movement?
Smith: Well, I think there are many Christian nationalist leaders who have been focused very hard on getting Trump elected again and are looking forward to that so that they can enact their agenda. There’s been lots of really good reporting on those, the hopes and the dreams of these Christian nationalist leaders.
Donnis: John Kasich, the former Ohio governor is a Christian and he sent out an email this week, saying he’s increasingly concerned about, “how elected officials and candidates are using religion as a political weapon.” What have you seen as far as the response by other mainstream Christians to the rise of Christian nationalism?
Smith: There are many mainstream Christians who are very upset by what they see happening. Because for many reasons, one is they think that it represents a Christianity that they don’t believe themselves. They don’t see their own beliefs reflected in what people like Michael Flynn are saying. Also they see that there’s a threat to their freedom of religion. For example, Flynn once suggested that pastors should be talking from the pulpit about the constitution as much as they are about the Bible. And some Christians who I heard from about that felt that that was inappropriate because it’s putting the government injecting it into religion and telling pastors what they should be saying from the pulpit. So there’s a lot of concern and there are some organized efforts to push back against Flynn and others. There’s a group called Christians Against Christian Nationalism that is very active that is organizing against these kinds of efforts.
Donnis: Michael Flynn spoke in Cranston last year, and there was a relatively small turnout. Does that show that there’s relatively little support in Northeast states for his message?
Smith: Well, I don’t know about that. You know, when I went to see one of Flynn’s appearances, I saw him in upstate New York and it was very crowded and it was very energetic and there were people from all over there. I noticed that when Flynn’s releases his film that he’s releasing soon. One of the dates is going to be in Groton, Connecticut. One of the showings. So there’s definitely people here who support him and think that he is doing the right thing and fighting hard for what they believe in, their shared beliefs.
Donnis: We’ve got to leave it there. Michelle Smith, a Providence based reporter on the investigations team of the Associated Press. Thank you very much for joining us.
Smith: Thanks for having me.
Donnis: For years, Rhode Island Attorney General Peter Neronha was a lonely voice in ringing an alarm about the healthcare and hospital landscape in the state. Now, other aspects of state government are getting involved. The Rhode Island Senate, for example, this week unveiled a huge package of bills meant to improve healthcare access and affordability. But these challenges took time to develop, so they will defy easy solutions. You can read more about that in my Friday TGIF column posting around 4 this afternoon on what used to be known as Twitter @IanDon and at thepublicsradio.org.
That’s our show for this week. Our producer is James Baumgartner.
I’m Ian Donnis and I’ll see you on the radio.