While Neronha is a Democratic elected official, he says these lawsuits are responding to violations of the law. But it’s unclear how courts will ultimately respond in our polarized age, particularly if and when cases reach the U.S. Supreme Court, which moved to the right over the last decade. So what happens to the rule of law in the second Trump administration? Are we on the cusp of a constitutional crisis? And how did Democrats fail to win enough support from Americans to maintain control of the White House? This week on Political Roundtable, I’m going in-depth with Rhode Island Attorney General Peter Neronha.
TRANSCRIPT
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Donnis: You’re part of a lawsuit with other attorneys general arguing that the Department of Government Efficiency is illegal and that Elon Musk’s downsizing of the federal government is wrong because he hasn’t been vetted by the Senate. Nonetheless, Musk is charging ahead with laying off thousands of government workers and undoing various branches of the federal government. If and when a court sides with your side on the argument, is it going to be too late to put Humpty Dumpty back together?
Neronha: Well, that is certainly a possibility, Ian. But, you know, we’re left to fight in the landscape in which we’re left to fight in. And I will say we have moved very quickly. I think you can for the most part, put Humpty Dumpty back together again. The federal government, whether Elon Musk likes it or not, is very slow moving, from my experience in the Department of Justice. So I think that if these courts will rule on our cases quickly, as I hope they will, I think we can reverse some of the damage.
In fact, you know, Musk himself is having to reverse some of the damage by bringing back people that they let go that they needed. For example, in the areas of things like nuclear weapons management. So using a chainsaw to cut the government’s not the most efficient way to do it.
Donnis: You’re also involved in lawsuits challenging the Trump administration’s freeze on federal funds, defending the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and supporting the ability of transgender people to serve in the military. How did the top state prosecutor in the smallest state in the nation take on such a significant role in all this big issue litigation?
Neronha: Yeah, well I think because we’re sharing the workload amongst attorneys general more than we did the first time. I’ve been through it once before. I’ve got a background in dealing with the federal government. You know, the case that we are most involved in and are co-leading is the case involving the freeze of already obligated funds by the Congress. That’s filed right here in Rhode Island before Judge McConnell where we’ve already had good outcomes. I’m confident we’re going to have more good outcomes. You know, that case in particular affects all Americans and affects all Rhode Islanders in a multitude of ways. It affects our health care, our infrastructure, our efforts to move towards a cleaner energy process, and eventually that will lead to cheaper energy. That’s, I think, the most important case we filed so far, and I’m proud to be a co-leader of it.
Donnis: What do you think Donald Trump is up to? What do you think his ultimate goal is with all this?
Neronha: I think it’s very clear. He is sidelining the Congress, which is what that case is principally about. Think about it, Congress has taken our federal tax dollars that we’ve sent to Washington and sent them back to us to do things like education, infrastructure, law enforcement, things I’ve talked about. By sidelining the Congress in this way, he’s sidelining a branch of government. By casting doubt upon the judiciary and its legitimacy, he’s attempting to sideline that branch of government. There are three branches of government, we all know that, when two get sidelined, that means all power rests in one place in one man, the president. To me, that is a path to authoritarianism. Those are the kinds of people that the president most admires. So I think if, if we look at it from a little bit of distance, it shouldn’t come as a surprise that he’s trying to move our government, our democracy in that direction. And it’s why AGs have been so vocal and quick to engage him in battle over these fundamental democratic principles that we believe in and we believe most Americans believe in as well.
Donnis: You and your fellow attorneys general are looking to the courts to be the ultimate backstop against this expansive White House. What degree of confidence do you have that courts will, on balance, side with the arguments that you and your colleagues are making?
Neronha: Well, they’re doing it already. So if you look at the cases around the country that we filed, we have one, you know, eight out of 10 of them already. Where we have lost skirmishes, even in cases like what we call DOGE 2 in Washington, about Elon Musk’s authority. While the judge there didn’t grant our temporary restraining order the judge did point out how Musk’s power used in this way should be of real concern to all Americans. And so I think in the long run, we’re going to win that case too. So I do believe that our arguments are right on the law. I wouldn’t be bringing them or participating in them otherwise. I do believe they’re harmful to Americans and I believe at the end of the day, the courts will side with us. And I think that’s why the president himself and the vice president and others are calling into question the legitimacy of the court system because they know they’re going to lose in the court in the end. It’s why it’s time for the court and the Congress to stand up and make the president recognize that we’re not so willing to cast aside our democratic principles that have stood the test of time for over 250 years.
Donnis: We’re talking here with Attorney General Peter Naronha, and of course, the situation would be very different in America if Democrats had held the White House last November. Did President Biden really undercut the effort to retain the White House by planning to run for reelection until it was almost too late for Kamala Harris to win?
Neronha: Yeah, look, I think, looking back on it in hindsight, it’s always 20/20, but I think the president did not do the party and because the party did not keep the White House Democratic Party did not do our democracy any favors. Look, he’s a prideful man. I understand why he thought he could run and win again. And some of his allies apparently think that could have happened. I don’t. I also think that the party, the Democratic Party was not well served by, in a sense, a preordained successor. I think had the president expressed a willingness to step aside earlier. We could have had an open primary like we have always had in the past, and I think that competition would have led, whether it would have been the vice president or not, would have led to a stronger candidate and a stronger campaign, and maybe we could have avoided this moment in time.
Donnis: Let me stop you there because we’re trying to cover some more issues. Trump won a very narrow popular vote victory, but he did win every swing state. Where has the Democratic party gone wrong to the point where it was such a loser on the electoral map.
Neronha: I think we have as a party spoken. Look, all the issues that we talk about as a party I believe in. But we tend to get caught talking about the issues that, if you will, are on the most progressive of the issues. Look, I believe in those issues too, but when you talk only about those issues, Americans can’t forget what the Democratic Party stands for, which is for the working men and women of this country. That is who we fight for, not the billionaires, working men and women. When our party begins to reach those people again, then we’ll have electoral success. But I think we lost our messaging. We have not messaged ourselves as the party of 25, 50, 75 years ago. And as a result, we haven’t done as well as we should have.
Donnis: You are the former top federal prosecutor in Rhode Island. So I’m sure you have taken note of how Dan Bongino, a former right wing podcaster, has been named the deputy director of the FBI. What does that mean for how the FBI will operate in a place like Rhode Island?
Neronha: Yeah, really, really concerned about what that will do for the morale of the excellent, excellent, nonpartisan FBI agents, men and women who I know are still here. I know already they have been taken off some of their regular duties, like national security to, to focus on immigration when that should be the focus of Homeland Security, not the FBI. That’s why we have these different agencies. So yeah, I’m really concerned about it. Look, I think the Justice Department as a whole is going to need to be reconstructed after this president leaves office. That work is going to be more important than ever. I’m not getting any younger. But I do look at that as something down the road that if I was called upon to help, I would certainly do it in whatever role might be appropriate.
Donnis: You’ve taken an interest in the healthcare landscape in Rhode Island. It seems like the fundamental problem is the reimbursement rate for Medicare and Medicaid and how it’s lower here than in Connecticut and Massachusetts. What is stopping progress on that? What needs to happen to bring Rhode Island more into our neighboring states on that.
Neronha: Well, commercial rates, too, are lower. We need to be realistic about what will solve our health care problems. Okay? I talked about this on social media yesterday, and I’ll be quick. The notion that $400,000 is going to bring a boatload of primary care providers into the state is fantastical. If you talk to any medical student, they’re coming out with $300,000 in loans. So that’s going to pay for one and a half doctors, but that’s the kind of window dressing that won’t solve our problems. I walked into Kent Hospital yesterday and I saw amazing administrators, better doctors and nurses and other providers, but a physical plant that at best needs overhaul. It probably needs replacement in a perfect world. We want a healthcare system that we’re not prepared to pay for. I know Medicaid is a big part of our budget. The reality is if it needs to be bigger to get us the healthcare system we need, the providers we need, then we need to bite that bullet. Our delegation is working hard in Washington to change Medicare. It’s a longer conversation, Ian. That needs to happen and we need to ensure that our commercial rates match too. If we don’t, our healthcare system is going to collapse.
Donnis: What is your timeline for deciding whether you will run for Lieutenant Governor or some other office next year? Summer.
Neronha: Summer. Yeah, summer. You know, I’m really focused right now on really fighting for I really believe it’s a crisis for our democracy. That is where my head is most days. That’s where my team’s head is. I think I’ll have a chance by summer to know what the future holds. But I do think I have a role to play going forward. A lot of that, of course, depends on the voters, but we’ll see where it ends up.
Donnis: You’re a fan of Helena Foulks, who is raising money in preparation for a run for governor. She lost closely to Governor McKee in 2022. Are you concerned that the justice department lawsuit against CVS, her former employer coinciding with her time there is going to be an albatross around her neck?
Neronha: Well, look, it’s something she’s going to have to answer. There’s no question. Those are serious allegations. And Helena is going to have to sort of explain that situation. I’ll leave it to her to do that. Look, I’m a fan of others too. I think if the speaker were to run for governor, I think he would be an excellent candidate. I have no idea whether he will in the end, but he’s done a great job as Speaker and our relationship is very close. I think Rhode Islanders need at a minimum a choice for change at the top of the Democratic ticket. And I’m looking forward to that array of choices.
Donnis: Has Zachary Cunha, the former top federal prosecutor, shared with you about whether he plans to run for attorney general?
Neronha: Uh, no. But I can share with you that I’m encouraging him to run. I don’t know that he will. I hope he does. He’s an excellent lawyer. We worked well together. I hired him. Not that I’m trying to take credit for his excellence, but he was great.
Donnis: We’ve got to leave it there. Thanks so much for joining us, Rhode Island Attorney General Peter Narona.
Neronha: Thanks, Ian.
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A poll out this week found that just 28 percent of Rhode Islanders think the state is headed in the right direction. Is that due mainly to headlines about stories like the Washington Bridge and a cyber-breach of the state social services portal, or something else? And how will it influence the next race for governor? You can read more about that in my Friday TGIF politics column posting around 4 this afternoon on X, Bluesky, Threads, Facebook, and at thepublicsradio.org/TGIF.
That’s it for our show. Political Roundtable is a production of The Public’s Radio. Our producer is James Baumgartner. Our editor this week is Alex Nunes. I’m Ian Donnis, and I’ll see you on the radio.
