When several women accused Rep. Eric Swalwell, D.-Calif., of sexual assault and misconduct, the congressman, who was running for governor, said he would resign but argued that expelling someone without due process was wrong.
Congressman Suhas Subramanyam, D.-Va., who serves on the House Ethics Committee, agrees that all members are subject to an investigation and entitled to due process. But he argues that members of Congress should hold themselves to a higher standard.
“I’m always an advocate of holding Congress and members of Congress accountable and making sure they’re subject to the same laws as the American people,” Subramanyam told Morning Edition in an interview with NPR’s Michel Martin.
Last week, Swalwell received backlash when rumors began to spread online about him and an alleged history of abusive behavior towards women. The tension came to a head when four women sat down with the San Francisco Chronicle and CNN to discuss their experiences with Swalwell, including alleged unwanted sexual advances and rape. NPR has not independently verified the allegations, and Swalwell has adamantly denied them.
When the interviews were published, Swalwell immediately lost key endorsements for his gubernatorial bid and suspended his campaign on Sunday. There were also demands for him to leave Congress. More than 50 former staffers to the congressman called on him to resign and several House lawmakers indicated they would try to expel him as soon as this week.
Richard Painter, a professor at the University of Minnesota Law School, told Morning Edition the evidence against Swalwell and Rep. Tony Gonzales, R.-Texas, is overwhelming. He told NPR’s A Martinez that Swalwell and Gonzales’ decision to resign from Congress is a “very good idea” because enduring a full investigation would have been harder.
Gonzales announced his resignation from Congress on Monday after being accused of having a sexual relationship with a staffer who later took her own life. He was facing a congressional investigation into his conduct with the possibility of an expulsion vote, though he did not cite the affair as the reason for his resignation.
“There is a season for everything and God has a plan for us all. When Congress returns tomorrow, I will file my retirement from office. It has been my privilege to serve the great people of Texas,” Gonzales wrote on X.
Painter served as chief White House ethics lawyer in the administration of George W. Bush. He says the allegations against Swalwell and Gonzales are “egregious,” and their resignations over mere accusations of such wrongdoings are “quite rare.”
Painter and Subramanyam discuss how congressional investigations work and why members resign before an investigation is concluded.
Listen to the full conversation by clicking the play button in the blue box above, and read highlights from the conversations below.
Why do Congress members resign when faced with backlash?
Subramanyam said resigning is often the smartest or “best course of action” for members in Swalwell’s case, because the Ethics Committee has no jurisdiction over anyone who is not a member of Congress. When the congressperson leaves their position, the investigation is over. Until then, the investigation will continue and the committee will continue to “dig very deep.”
“The rules of the House of Representatives say that if you have an affair, a sexual relationship with a staffer who is reporting to you, that’s automatic expulsion,” he said. “We would still do an investigation.”
A House Ethics investigation can take anywhere from a couple of weeks to several years, which is why expulsion votes have become popular in Congress.
“They don’t want to wait weeks or months,” Subramanyam said. “They want to get to it.”
In the same vein, resigning can speed up the process, but also avoid further damage to the members reputation. Painter agreed Gonzales and Swalwell were smart to resign, because if they didn’t they would have to answer to the already overwhelming evidence and more.
“If the evidence is overwhelming and they go and lie to the Congressional Ethics Committee and so forth, they just make their problems even worse.” Painter said.
“I think they made the right decision, which is to get out of Congress,” he concluded.
Who gets due process and why?
Once a staff of investigators and lawyers look closely at the allegations, Subramanyam said the subjects of such complaints are given due process.
He said that everyone is subject to a thorough investigation and due process — it’s why the Ethics Committee exists — even when the facts are cut and dry.
“We should hold ourselves to a higher standard, too, because we’re supposed to be an example,” Subramanyam said. “So I’m always an advocate of making sure that the rules apply to us and the laws apply to us, and a higher ethical standard also applies to us.”
Transcript:
MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
For more on the ethics concerns raised by the issues involving Representatives Swalwell and Gonzales, we turn now to Congressman Suhas Subramanyam of Virginia. He’s a Democrat, and he serves on the House Ethics Committee. Congressman, good morning. Thank you for joining us.
SUHAS SUBRAMANYAM: Thank you.
MARTIN: As we’ve just heard, both Congressman Swalwell and Congressman Gonzales say they’re both leaving office now, although the exact date isn’t clear for either of them. Once they leave office, what happens to these House ethics investigations? They’re done, right?
SUBRAMANYAM: They’re done. We don’t have jurisdiction over anyone who’s not a member of Congress, and that’s why often we feel like the – resigning might be the best course of action. The worst-case scenario if you’re charged with ethics violations is being expelled from Congress, but we certainly don’t put people in jail or anything like that.
MARTIN: So I guess the question would be best for whom? I guess one question might be, are there things that an ethics investigation might bring to light that Americans need to see? For example, are there issues around administration or practice that the entire Congress needs to be made aware of?
SUBRAMANYAM: Well, certainly, when we do get a referral to the Ethics Committee, we dig very deep. We have a staff of investigators and lawyers who look very closely at the allegations and take them very seriously. They – we give the people who are subject to complaints due process, and sometimes these investigations can take months or years. And that’s why lately you’ve been seeing a lot of members of Congress just bring expulsion votes to the floors because they don’t want to wait weeks or months. They want to get to it.
MARTIN: What do you think about that?
SUBRAMANYAM: You know, I think the Ethics Committee exists to give people due process. Certainly, any member is entitled to bring whatever they want to the floor. I will also say that the Ethics Committee of late has been working faster than I think it’s ever worked in recent history, and we’ve worked in a very bipartisan fashion. So certainly, if the body wants to come to us and give people due process, we’re here for it.
MARTIN: So obviously, as you just pointed out, people are entitled to due process, but let’s say, for the sake of argument, that the facts are as presented. Is that enough, in these two cases, to hold them accountable? These are some very disturbing allegations involving people who worked for the Congress.
SUBRAMANYAM: Certainly. So the rules of the House of Representatives say that if you have an affair, a sexual relationship with a staffer who’s reporting to you, that’s automatic expulsion. And so in the case of anyone who’s subject to these types of accusations, we would still do an investigation. And often, in some cases, like in the case of Mr. Gonzales, we’ll find more. And so then we keep digging deeper, and then we bring to light what we do find, and then we make a recommendation to the entire House of Representatives. At that point, there’s a vote on the floor. But we – even when it seems cut and dry, we still investigate and give them due process, and often we will dig deeper.
MARTIN: I think the bigger question that some are asking is, is there a bigger problem with Congress’ self-governance that might need to be addressed? I mean, it wasn’t until 1995 that – with the Congressional Accountability Act, that civil rights laws that apply to every other business or entity applied to Congress. So I think people are wondering if the political needs of the major political parties override the right to a dignified workplace for the staff.
SUBRAMANYAM: I’m always an advocate of holding Congress and members of Congress accountable and making sure they’re subject to the same laws as the American people. And they should certainly hold themselves – we should hold ourselves – to a higher standard, too, because we’re supposed to be an example. We’re supposed to be the people that were sent to Washington to represent people. So I’m always an advocate of making sure that the rules apply to us and the laws apply to us and a higher ethical standard also applies to us.
MARTIN: So the question, though, is does that need to be codified in some way, in your opinion? And I realize that there are things that you can’t talk about at the moment because you are involved with an ongoing ethics investigation of another member. You were recently involved with an investigation of a member that has been recently concluded. But based on what you have seen so far in the time that you’ve been in Congress, do you think that other measures need to be codified in some way? ‘Cause really, the question is, is Congress doing enough to police its own behavior?
SUBRAMANYAM: I think we’re doing a lot more than the American public thinks. We hold ourselves to a pretty high standard. And certainly, anytime there’s an allegation, we investigate it, and we investigate it very thoroughly. I will say that I’m an advocate of more. I’m an advocate of working faster through these investigations and making sure because justice delayed is justice denied. So I’m always an advocate of trying to do more and to police ourselves even more. I’m new here, but I will say that this Ethics Committee and, you know, recent events have shown that we are moving quickly, and we’re trying to make sure that the American people have trust in their Congress.
MARTIN: That is Congressman Suhas Subramanyam. He’s a Democrat from Virginia. Congressman, thank you.
SUBRAMANYAM: Thank you.
MARTIN: And I do want to mention that NPR has reached out – and we continually reach out – to Republican members of Congress, and those invitations remain open.
