Sen. Ron Johnson, a Republican from Wisconsin, says he is “sick and tired” of the current federal shutdown and placed blame on both Republicans and Democrats for how negotiations play out during federal shutdowns.
In an interview with Morning Edition, Johnson said shutdowns are often a good excuse for the “uniparty” — a collection of both Republicans and Democrats “that are happy to mortgage our children’s future” — to spend more federal money.
“It’s often said ‘show me a member of Congress who ever lost because he spent too much money.’ That’s our problem,” Johnson continued. “And the other problem is the American public, by and large, loves free federal money.”
With the Senate unable to pass either of two dueling continuing resolution spending proposals, most of the federal government remains shut down.
Republicans want a clean spending bill that would fund the government for seven weeks. Democrats insist that any measure should extend Affordable Care Act (ACA) subsidies — which are used by over 20 million people to make their health insurance more affordable. Those subsidies will expire at the end of the year. Democrats also want to reverse cuts to health spending made by President Trump’s One Big Beautiful Bill Act and limit the president’s ability to withhold funds appropriated by Congress.
Johnson blamed the high costs of health care on the “faulty design of Obamacare” and said Democrats should be willing to work with Republicans to fix “their horrible health bill.” President Trump in his first term — with Republicans in control of both houses — did not repeal and replace Obamacare as he pledged to do during the 2016 campaign.
Negotiations like the one happening now over health care, Johnson said, can be avoided with his proposed Eliminate Shutdowns Act — a piece of legislation that would fund the federal government at the previous year’s spending levels in the event Congress fails to approve a spending resolution for a new fiscal year.
Speaking to NPR’s Michel Martin, Johnson discussed the nature of shutdowns and efforts by Republicans to address health care costs.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Interview highlights
Michel Martin: We’re hearing that there’s no movement between the leadership over the past week on ending the shutdown. But how about senator to senator, person to person? Is there anything going on there?
Sen. Ron Johnson: Well, let me just ask, do you enjoy covering this issue? I’m sick and tired of these shutdown showdowns. Last fiscal year — I don’t know how many cliffs we came to — it took us six months to just do a continuing resolution. This is a ridiculous situation we’re in. So I proposed the Eliminate Shutdown Act. So all this does is it would establish a 14-day rolling continuing appropriations where you haven’t funded the department or all the government. It doesn’t shut it down. If you haven’t appropriated for a government agency, you just fund it at last year’s levels. It would give the appropriators time. You know, you find the areas of agreement. You know, we passed some appropriation bills prior to the end of the fiscal year in the Senate. So, again, this doesn’t have to happen at all. This is ridiculous.
Martin: So you made this proposal. It would continue the current funding levels in two-week increments, as you just said, when there’s no actual funding bill in place. It would seem there’d be something for both sides in this. It would keep spending at its current level. It would give people an opportunity to negotiate. Your proposal didn’t go forward. Why do you think that is?
Johnson: Because it doesn’t spend enough. Spending at last year’s levels just is not enough for the uniparty, certainly not enough for Democrats and our own appropriators. Again, it seems dysfunctional, but understand: this process of shutdown showdowns — this is a well-honed process for mortgaging our children’s future.
Martin: But it would seem that there’s something in it for both sides. And because some Republicans did vote with the Democrats, would that suggest that there’s something in it for both sides? These shutdowns have some appeal for both sides.
Johnson: Yeah, absolutely. That’s what I’m saying. The uniparty loves the shutdown showdown because it backs us up to these deadlines. The first one is going to be Thanksgiving. We won’t come to an agreement by then. So then the next will be Christmas Eve. And then that gives your appropriaters enough time, a few people, to write a couple thousand-page bill, drop it on our desks and say, take it or leave it. And unfortunately enough people take it. And that’s why we’re $37 trillion in debt, facing another $26 trillion of deficits over the next 10 years. So it’s completely unsustainable.
Martin: So at the center of this current argument is health care. Democrats say they want to extend the subsidies that help people buy health insurance through the Affordable Care Act. In your state, a little over 313,000 people bought their health insurance through this ACA marketplace in 2025. What are you telling those folks whose costs are set to increase?
Johnson: Well, I like The Washington Post headline yesterday saying the truth is the Affordable Care Act was never affordable. The reason the insurance rates are skyrocketing is because of the faulty design of Obamacare. I think Republicans would be happy to help Democrats fix their horrible health care bill. It wasn’t affordable. It didn’t protect patients. You couldn’t keep your doctor. You weren’t able to keep your insurance. It’s been an utter failure. Free government money, free health insurance — that’s always going to be popular.
Editor’s note: The Washington Post editorial board published an opinion piece Oct. 5 in which it claimed “The real problem is that the Affordable Care Act was never actually affordable.”
Martin: President Trump in his first term had both the House and the Senate and Republicans as a group did not fix this problem. So why is it fair to blame Democrats for this now?
Johnson: I was highly critical of our failed effort back then. I always kept saying, rather than talking about “repeal, replace,” you got to talk about repairing the damage done by Obamacare and transition to a system that actually works. The main problem with Obamacare is it forced the very small percentage of Americans that buy their policies on individual policy to cover the entire cost of covering people with preexisting conditions. They got rid of high-risk pools that worked, could have been tweaked, you know, that actually covered those people. And again, Democrats’ entire focus on this was going to a single-payer system.
Martin: But President Trump and the Republicans control both branches of Congress now and the White House now. What are your plans to fix this now?
Johnson: So we’re actually working with health care experts and we’re looking at the faulty design of Obamacare and looking at how we can fix it now. Will Democrats actually do it? I doubt it. Their idea of fixing anything is to just throw more money at it, which is what they’re trying to do with these temporary, pandemic-enhanced subsidies, which again, it’s just driving health care costs higher.
Martin: Well, speaking of money, President Trump is suggesting that at least some furloughed federal workers might not be paid once the government reopens. Do you think that’s fair?
Johnson: Again, I think shutdowns are stupid and we can avoid this whole thing. Wouldn’t even be an issue if Democrats just vote for this continuing resolution. Or even better yet, we passed the Eliminate Shutdown Act and we’ll never have to have this conversation again, Michel. And I like talking to you. I hate this conversation. This is ridiculous. We’re in this situation. We can eliminate this for all time. But the big spenders, the appropriators, the Union Party loves this process because this is how exactly they’ve mortgaged our children’s future. This is why we’re $37 trillion in debt. That’s the big picture.
Martin: The president is threatening to lay off the furloughed federal workers. What are your thoughts on that? I know that the federal workforce is not a big part of Wisconsin’s workforce, but what are your thoughts about that? Do you think that’s fair?
Johnson: Well, first of all, when you have a bankrupt entity, everybody gets laid off or when you have a company that’s in real trouble, you have to start laying off just to get the company to survive. So that’s what happens in the private sector. I don’t know why the public sector employee should be immune to that exact same process. We need to start trimming the size of government, the size, scope and cost of it, because again, we are mortgageing our future, devaluing our dollar and that’s why people can’t afford things. But the shutdown showdowns, this is a distraction to the massive problem we have with $37 trillion in debt.
This digital article was edited by Treye Green. The radio version was edited by Olivia Hampton and produced by Nia Dumas.
Transcript:
MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
Let’s hear from a lawmaker who proposed a bill to prevent future shutdowns as this funding impasse enters its second week. We’re talking about Senator Ron Johnson. He’s a Republican from Wisconsin, and he’s on the line now. Good morning, Senator. Thanks for coming back on the program.
RON JOHNSON: Good morning, Michel. Hope you’re doing well.
MARTIN: I’m doing well. Thank you. So we’re hearing that there’s no movement between the leadership over the past week on ending this shutdown. But how about senator to senator, person to person? Is there anything going on there?
JOHNSON: Well, let me just ask – are – do you enjoy covering this issue? Yeah, I…
MARTIN: Oh, sir.
JOHNSON: I am sick and tired of these shutdown showdowns. I mean, last fiscal year, I don’t know how many cliffs we came to. It took us six months to just do a continuing resolution. So this is a ridiculous issue. This is a ridiculous situation we’re in. Doesn’t have to happen.
MARTIN: So you…
JOHNSON: So I…
MARTIN: Yeah.
JOHNSON: So I propose the Eliminate Shutdown Act. I…
MARTIN: Yeah.
JOHNSON: …Passed something when I was committee chair preventing government shutdown. This is actually simpler than that. So all this does is it would establish 14-day rolling continuing appropriations where you haven’t funded a department or all the government. It doesn’t shut it down. It’s really modeled what we do – after what we do in Wisconsin, and this was passed in the 1950s. If you haven’t appropriated for a government agency, you don’t shut it down. You just fund at last year’s levels. What could be more common sense? You know, and it just continues. So again, it would give the appropriators time. You know, you find the areas of agreement. You know, we passed some appropriation bills prior to the end of the fiscal year in the Senate, so again, this doesn’t have to happen at all. This is ridiculous.
MARTIN: So you made this proposal. It would continue the current funding levels in two-week increments, as you just said, when there’s no actual funding bill in place. It would seem there’d be something for both sides in this. It would keep – it would, you know, keep spending at its current level, and it would give people an opportunity to negotiate. Your proposal didn’t go forward. Why do you think that is?
JOHNSON: Because it doesn’t spend enough. Spending at last year’s levels just is not enough for the uniparty, certainly not enough for Democrats and our own appropriators. Again, it seems dysfunctional, but understand – this process of shutdown showdowns – this is a well-honed process for mortgaging our children’s future.
MARTIN: But it would seem that there’s something in it for both sides, then, because Republicans did vote with the Democrats. Some Republicans did vote with the Democrats against your bill. So would that suggest that there’s something in it for both sides – these shutdowns have some appeal for both sides?
JOHNSON: Absolutely. That’s what I’m saying.
MARTIN: OK.
JOHNSON: The uniparty loves the shutdown showdowns because it’s – it backs us up to these deadlines. You know, the first one’s going to be Thanksgiving. We won’t come to an agreement by then. It’ll – so the next will be Christmas Eve. And then that gives the appropriators enough time – a few people – to write a couple-thousand-page bill, drop it on our desks and say, take it or leave it.
MARTIN: OK.
JOHNSON: And unfortunately, enough people take it. And that’s why we’re $37 trillion in debt, facing another…
MARTIN: OK.
JOHNSON: …Twenty-six trillion dollars of deficits over the next 10 years.
MARTIN: So at…
JOHNSON: This is completely unsustainable.
MARTIN: So at the center of this current argument is health care. Democrats say they want to extend the subsidies that help people buy health insurance through the Affordable Care Act. In your state in 2025, a little over 313,000 people bought their health insurance through the – through this ACA marketplace. What are you telling those folks whose costs are set to increase?
JOHNSON: Well, I liked The Washington Post headline yesterday saying, the truth is the Affordable Care Act was never affordable. The reason insurance rates are skyrocketing is because of the faulty design of Obamacare. So we really – you know, listen. I think Republicans would be happy to help Democrats fix their horrible health care bill. It wasn’t affordable. It didn’t protect patients. You couldn’t keep your doctor. You weren’t able to keep your insurance. It’s been an utter failure. You know, listen, free government money, free health insurance – that’s always going to be popular…
MARTIN: OK, but…
JOHNSON: …But you can’t…
MARTIN: …Didn’t the – President Trump, in his first term, had both the House and the Senate. And the – and Republicans as a group did not fix this problem. So why is it fair to blame Democrats for this now?
JOHNSON: No, listen, I – I was highly critical of our failed effort back then. I always kept saying it. Rather than talking about repeal and replace, you ought to talk about repair the damage done by Obamacare and transition to a system that actually works. You know, for…
MARTIN: OK.
JOHNSON: The main problem with Obamacare is it forced the very small percentage of Americans that buy their policies at an individual policy to cover the entire cost of covering people with preexisting conditions. They got rid of high-risk pools that worked, could have been tweaked, you know, that actually covered those people. And again, it was – Democrats’ entire focus on this was going to a single-payer system. They’re moving that direction. And when you have no other options in terms of getting health care, yeah, you’re – you’ll get it wherever you want to (ph). So…
MARTIN: OK, but President Trump and the Republicans control both branches of Congress now and the White House now. What are your plans to fix this now?
JOHNSON: So we’re actually working with health care experts, and we’re looking at the, you know, faulty design of Obamacare and looking at how we can fix it. Now, will Democrats actually do it? I doubt it. Their…
MARTIN: OK.
JOHNSON: …Idea of fixing anything is to just throw more money at it, which is exactly what they’re trying to do with these temporary, pandemic-enhanced subsidies, which – again, that’s – it’s just driving health care costs higher, quite honestly.
MARTIN: All right. And speaking of money at it, President Trump is suggesting that at least some furloughed federal workers might not be paid once the government reopens. Do you think that’s fair?
JOHNSON: Again, I think shutdowns are stupid, and we can avoid this whole thing. Wouldn’t even be an issue if Democrats just vote for this continuing resolution. Or even better yet, we pass the Eliminate Shutdown Act, and we’ll never have to have this conversation again, Michel. Again, I like talking to you. I hate this conversation. This is ridiculous. We’re in this situation. We can eliminate this for all time. But the big spenders, the appropriators, the uniparty loves this process because this is how exactly they’ve mortgaged their children’s future. This is why we’re $37 trillion in debt. That’s the big picture.
MARTIN: Just for clarity…
JOHNSON: We already talked about…
MARTIN: …When…
JOHNSON: …Thirty-seven trillion dollars of debt.
MARTIN: For clarity, when you say the uniparty, what do you mean? For people who haven’t maybe heard you use this term before, what do you mean by that?
JOHNSON: Those are the Democrats and Republicans that are happy to mortgage their children’s future. They don’t care what they spend. It’s often said that – show me a member of Congress who ever lost because they spent too much money. That’s our problem. And the other problem is the American public, by and large, loves free federal money. They love their benefits, and they’re happy listening to this. Oh, somebody else will pay for that.
MARTIN: OK.
JOHNSON: Yes.
MARTIN: Before we let you go, though, the president’s threatening to lay off the furloughed federal workers. What are your thoughts on that? I know that federal workforce is not a big part of Wisconsin’s workforce, but what are your thoughts about that? Do you think that’s fair?
JOHNSON: Well, first of all, when you have a bankrupt entity, everybody gets laid off. Or when you have a company that’s in real trouble, you have to start laying off just to get the company to survive. So that’s what happens in the private sector. I don’t know why the public sector employees should be immune to that exact same process. You know, we ought to be – we need to start trimming the size of government, the size, scope and cost of it, because again, we are mortgaging our future, devaluing our dollar. That’s why people can’t afford things. So you got to look at the big picture. But I think these shutdown showdowns – again, this is a distraction to the massive problem we have with $37 trillion in debt.
MARTIN: That is Senator Ron Johnson. He’s a Republican from Wisconsin. Senator Johnson, thank you so much for talking with us, no matter what the topic is, whether you…
JOHNSON: Happy to talk (ph).
MARTIN: …Enjoy it or not. Thank you.
JOHNSON: Take care.
(SOUNDBITE OF SOULS OF MISCHIEF SONG, “93 ‘TIL INFINITY”)
