James Baumgartner: Paul, in your presentation the other day, you mentioned a few different Thanksgivings when you were talking about the the myth of Thanksgiving. What was the first one? And what were some of the other Thanksgivings that you talked about?
Paul Robinson: Well, the first Thanksgiving. So named by antiquarians in the 19th century took place in Plymouth. The Pilgrims had harvested successfully for the first time. It was fall, 1621. They’d used knowledge that Indian people had taught them about how to plant crops and tend for them. And so they were having a harvest festival, went on for three days, Indian people showed up and shared the food harmoniously. At the time. It wasn’t a Thanksgiving, it was a harvest festival. But it became known as the first Thanksgiving. And the first I guess proclaimed Thanksgiving that the Pilgrims had at Plymouth was at the end of King Philip’s War, when they celebrated. Benjamin Church brought, Pometacomet (or Phillips), head into town after they’d killed him. And they put it up on a post and there it stood for 30 years or more until it decayed. So that was the first official Thanksgiving that I’m aware of. But there were other festivals. It became known as the first Thanksgiving by antiquarians in the 19th century and then adopted as sort of the first glorious chapter of the children’s version of American history.
Luis Hernandez: I’m curious what you think about the way we’re taught in schools, about Thanksgiving and Native American history? Yeah, I mean, you know, the story. And I even remember, I got to dress up as a pilgrim. You know, when we did our little play, but I mean, what do you think about what how it’s taught?
Robinson: It’s sort of become fixed in the American imagination. So kids dress up as Pilgrims and Indians, as if it were a harmonious occasion that lasted for all time, but before the 1621 harvest festival, there were serious epidemics that killed – that came from Europe that killed 1000s of Indian people in New England. And then immediately after the first Thanksgiving, so called first Thanksgiving in 1621, violence broke out between pilgrim people and Indian people, and it just decayed from there, it became very vicious and very, very violent, a real betrayal of that first harmonious sharing of food. So it’s if it’s taught that way, still, and I’m not sure it is because my kids have grown up. It’s wrong. It’s just wrong. And we just need to come to terms with that we’re not telling or suggesting to anyone that they shouldn’t enjoy sharing food with their family at thanksgiving. What we implore and hope for and talk for is that we get the history right.
Hernandez: What would you change? John about, you know, what’s in the, I guess, you know, what’s in the history books at schools?
John Brown III: I would gather you gentlemen who have seen, you know, the international news about Canada and how they are trying to make amends, after some unfaithful and bad faith dealing from their government. The government of the United States and the church in the United States has never made an acknowledgement of wrongdoing of the indigenous people. So I guess a good Thanksgiving for all tribal people would be to have that admission. And moreover, in that some sort of recompense or correction, to the way that the indigenous people have been treated. In the modern time it’s considered that a take it or leave it type approach. In other words, what we give you is sufficient, and you should be happy because we’re allowing you to live in this rich nation. What people have failed to recognize is that the wealth of the United States is made off the backs of its indigenous people. Whatever people here today have, they have it as a result of living on the land. That until not so long ago, were inhabited only by the indigenous people. So maybe a correction along those lines. Might be in order. But good luck on that.
Baumgartner: Here in New England, do you think people are better informed about this history? Or are the mythological ideas more entrenched here?
Brown: The people in America, they despise any negative feelings or being made to feel bad. How are you going to tell these people that are basically full of themselves? That whatever you’re doing, or however you’re doing it, it may be incorrect. How do you address that? From the standpoint of law, policy, or even morality? That’s the $90 question. That’s the thing that it’s going to take more than Dr. Robinson and myself to answer. It’s gonna take the people themselves to want to do that.
Hernandez: You know what, though, Paul, I want your take on what he’s saying.
Robinson: I’m not sure if New England people are more aware of what really happened than non-New England people. I know that in my family, my family grew up in the northeast, they’re very well educated, supposedly. And when I talked to them about these issues, they just it just get a lot of blank stares. I mean, there’s compassion for what English people did to Indian people. But they’re lacking the details they’re lacking the historical examples, when I talk about King Philip’s War, for example, are 1000s of Indian people were killed, and those who survived, either found a way to live on the margins, or hid out in the hills or were sold into slavery or died of starvation. I mean, that’s a totally different proposition. They’re not even sure what that war was. And so I think we’ve got to start, just keep plugging away and just keep educating and keep talking, keep teaching one – I taught for 17 years at Rhode Island College, and I, you know, some of the students really got it, but some of them would leave the classroom and just instantly forget, you know, it’s really inconvenient. And it’s uncomfortable. But we just need to keep talking.
Baumgartner: How do you celebrate Thanksgiving?
Robinson: Well, I’m gonna meet up with my family out near Cooperstown, New York, and we’re just gonna share food. But enjoy each other’s company.
Hernandez: Did these conversations ever come up, though? But how Thanksgiving is? Again, the way we view Thanksgiving? Does that ever come up?
Robinson: Well, you know, most of my adult life, I’ve been talking about this to somebody and so I’ve talked with my family about it over the years, but it probably won’t come up in a big way. I mean, we understand that we’re gathering to share food among within the family. And it has nothing to do except the foods on our plate come from the brilliance of Native American botanists, but except for that…
Baumgartner: John, can you tell me how you spend this holiday on Thursday?
Brown: Well, I will have some food that day. Got to eat. It might be in greater abundance but, the gathering, I think is the importance. So if it was this week or next week or last week, what difference does it make the idea of gathering and sharing with your friends and with your family. That is an ancient tribal custom. That is something that we’ve always done. years ago, we would spend the days right around this time going to the different houses, it wouldn’t just be one day, it’d be several days. Time and Place doesn’t allow that anymore. But there was at one time, there was an old saying that you had, you know, to the generations before you and to the younger generations to go and visit them. It would have been like that, you know, when we were in the long houses. Sometimes one village would go to another village. It broke up the winter, which were far harsher than they are today. So yeah, I’m gonna have some food. I might even go see my inlaws and they’re Polish. But it’s just a thing to do.
Baumgartner: John Brown, thank you so much for talking with us. Paul Robinson, thank you so much for talking with us on The Public’s Radio.
