This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
The American Psychological Association issued a public apology in 2021 for the organization’s history of racism and marginalization of people of color. The letter prompted a range of reactions from the psychological community.
The Association of Black Psychologists saw it as an opportunity to explore and address the APA’s problematic history, as well as to imagine an anti-racist future. That’s the goal of “Psychology’s Role in Harming People of Color: Understanding the History and Taking Action,” an online workshop taking place Friday, Feb. 3, 9:00 a.m.-1:30 p.m.
Morning host Luis Hernandez spoke with the president of the ABPsi, Dr. Donell Barnett, Ph.D., about racism in psychology – in the past as well as the present.
Go to ripsych.org to register or learn more about “Psychology’s Role in Harming People of Color.” The class, presented by the Rhode Island Psychological Association, is designed for psychologists, but open to members of the public.
TRANSCRIPT:
Luis Hernandez: The American Psychological Association publicly apologized for the harm that it had caused so many different groups – indigenous people, Black communities, minority communities – over many, many years. What was your response to that apology?
Donnell Barnett: Our position, from the Association of Black Psychologists – many of our members thought it was, it was good. It was good to see that APA took some ownership in its role to harm to many communities throughout history. We did, however, have very serious objection and critique for not acknowledging some other really critical components of the history, as well as not as much of an active role that we would like to see in psychology’s continued role in harm. Right now, there are implications for family separations, there are implications for individuals who are in the criminal justice system, there are implications for the workforce. As people have talked about a lot, we are in a mental health crisis, as has been termed by many. And Black people, indigenous people, other people of color – their ability to participate in the mental health workforce is in large part due to existing and current policies and structures and systems that were established and still promoted by APA. And so it felt a little, it was very unbalanced in that sense.
Hernandez: What was it like for you as a student, what you learned about, you know, the issue of psychology and race? Was it taught? Or how did you experience it as a Black man?
Barnett: For those who do clinical work, this is not a common part of the training. It certainly wasn’t for me, coming through in the 90s. You do get courses where, you know, there’ll be a section about one group or the other, or some unique feature. But it is always judged against white people as a normative, as a standard, as a model, and how Black folks, indigenous folks, others may deviate. And it’s not communicated that way, you know, just to be clear, but – just as everything, many other things in our society are normed on white culture, white values, white ethic, who gets to say what their norm is, how do we define what deviates from that norm. And psychology is no different.
Hernandez: So clinically, what’s been your experience in how people react to having, you know, a psychologist who is Black? How do white patients react? How do Black patients react to who’s on the other side of that table?
Barnett: We’ve seen this in a number of studies, and I wouldn’t try to quote everything, but we’ve seen it in a number of studies where people tend to prefer someone that looks like them, and at a minimum easily identifies with their experience. When I was a practicing psychologist, I’ve had white individuals, Hispanic individuals, members of the LGBT community, just you know, I’ve had a range of people that I’ve worked with. … You know, if I’m at a particular clinic and word gets out that, you know, there’s a Black guy there, I have had that experience where people will come and get therapy just because they know that there’s a Black person there. And that’s not very different from you know, a woman may prefer to see a woman, right? So we all kind of have our inclinations in that way. It becomes a bigger challenge when you think about the math. If there’s only a small number of Black clinicians – or Black or Hispanic, or, you know, whatever the case, or LGBTQ, you know, whatever the case may be – they can’t see every one of their own community that might be seeking services, which creates this dynamic where you will have to cross lines, if you will. And if the person that’s on the other side of the table has no sense of your reality, of your worldview or worse, has been trained and grown in a ethic that says you are deviant, that you are at risk, that you are right, you know that that there’s something wrong with you, it can lead to a harmful experience, or someone dropping out of therapy altogether because they just didn’t get what they needed.
Hernandez: One of the things that we’ve seen over the years is, you know, there was always a stigma to people reaching out and trying to get help. But I wondered if, in the Black community, has that stigma kind of been knocked out? Or is it still there?
Barnett: If the question is about seeking help, right – you know, I’m stressed, I’m in crisis, I’m having a problem, and I need help – we do see Black folks and many other folks are very willing to go to someone for help. Now, that could be a coach, it could be a pastor, it could be your barber, your hairdresser, it could be a cousin, a friend, it could be someone else in the community. So help seeking? Yes, we see that writ large. And that, that is, for people who really rest in community, we come together to solve problems and work through things. Now, if you’re asking the question about, do people go to traditional therapy, then yes, you do see a good bit of stigma there. Not a lot, not much stigma more than any other community, but sometimes that stigma is rooted in different reasons. For example, you know, we’ve often talked about the Tuskegee study and other kinds of studies and science and experiments and things like that – interactions with the government, interactions with formal institutions, right? And many times those spaces are harmful spaces. Historically they have been in. So stigma, particularly when you’re talking about the Black community and mental health, it has a little bit of a different flavor than other communities, simply because of the harmful interactions with many of these institutions. And I really like to emphasize, we often like to frame these as historical problems. It is true today. We saw it even with COVID-19, right? … Well, those are sort of larger systemic forces that’s contributing to the sense that these institutions may not help me, or may put me out in a targeted way. And so the stigma tends to, can oftentimes be rooted in real experiences that would create the barriers.
Hernandez: Dr. Barnett, it’s been a pleasure. I really appreciate your time today.
Barnett: Thank you so much.
